Thành viên:Laurent Bouvier/Free Vietnamese Dictionary Project Vietnamese-French

First attempt

This is the list of examples that I have taken (completely randomly)

• postal
• onirique
• inopérant
• immunitaire
• heureux
• pique-niquer
• pisseur
• opaque
• jongler
• gastronomique

Actually I have begun by the simpliest for me because I need to better understand the structure of your articles.

• Từ nguyên/ Etymology : this section is mandatory in the French wiktionnary. I have then followed the same rule and when written that this section is a stub.
• Wikification of the definition : I have built on my PC a small dictionnary of existing words in Vietnamese and then I try to wikify the biggest set of separate syllabes.
• Examples: I have put the word or its derivates in bold and then the translation
• Cách phát âm/Pronounciation: What's the right place for the pronounciation? I have put only a representation using phonemes derived from IPA (and not SAMPA, AHD ...) Is it OK?
• Tham khảo/ References : I have created this template to store the list of external references
• R:FVDP : I have created this template to identified the source.
• I have not added any template to mark this item as being automatically imported and requires to be verified.
• Additional categories: are they correct? are they useful? e.g. Thể loại:Tính từ tiếng Pháp /Thể loại:Danh từ tiếng Pháp

Many thanks for your comments Laurent Bouvier 07:53, ngày 11 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

I have commented on each word. Overall, this seems very promissing. The biggest problem that I spot out is a possible bug of what I call "broked-up-hyperlink" for compound words. To fix this you may need information in the database of the compoundness of words. If not, we can remove all hyperlink; or, brutely forcing the final word in the list of alternative words for a meaning to be compoundly hyperlinked; or just leave it as is for "people" to correct them, as in many cases broken up parts of a compound words still have meaning. Or you or other may have some better ideas?

• Từ nguyên: seems ok
• Wikification: that's the problem of "broked-up-hyperlink for compound words" that I noticed above.
• Example: seems really nice
• Cách phát âm: I though this should be right on top of the article (below the Từ nguyên), but I have no opposition to the current format.
• Tham khảo: nice
• R:FVDP : nice
• Auto-import mark : we can incorporate the note in the template R:FVDP
• Additional categories: I have commented at Thảo luận Thành viên:Laurent Bouvier/inopérant

I would like to suggest a interwiki link (to French Wiktionary for French word, to English Wikipedia, for English word, ...), just 1 link is needed, since other interwiki bots will finish the job.

Trần Thế Trung 13:33, ngày 11 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

Modifications based on your comments:

• Category name => I had done a mistake
• Category => It is necessary to have diacritic suppression to respect the alphabetical order
• Pronounciation => Relocated
• I have added some interwiki links
• Is the etymology and etymology stub message necessary?

Laurent Bouvier 21:23, ngày 11 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

If you intend to use the "pipe-trick" with categories, you'll eventually need to write a script that'll undo that. The reason we haven't been using the pipe-trick for that purpose at any Vietnamese-language wiki is that we're waiting on Bug 164 to be fixed. If you're willing to come back and fix the workaround later, that's fine with me.

I don't think the etymology stub message is necessary for Vietnamese words, because (as far as I know) most base words in Vietnamese have very obscure origins. Compound words, loan words, and reduplicated words can of course utilize the section, however. Maybe we should have a more general "stub" message for entries that are lacking in definitions, though. Tương tự is listed in Hồ Ngọc Đức's dictionary as only meaning "lovesick", but it also means "analog". That entry would need a stub tag, which we already have at Template:Stub.

 – Nguyễn Xuân Minh (thảo luận, đóng góp) 00:19, ngày 12 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

I have suppressed the etymology section.

I have found multiply by 2 the number of compounds for the wikification (Now my DB has 45000 entries) Laurent Bouvier 07:25, ngày 12 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

I have seen many improvement in your new testing articles, especially in the wikification. The wikification may still need to be enhanced, following the discussion I've made on Thảo luận Thành viên:Laurent Bouvier/défectueux and Thảo luận Thành viên:Laurent Bouvier/heureux.

For the pipe trick in category; I think we can still leave the diacritics, Vietnamese Wikipedia is doing this right now; people, once know that we are waiting for the Bug 164, won't complain and wait.

A small correction to Nguyễn Xuân Minh's comment, tương tư = "lovesick", tương tự = "analog"; of course there are still other words that need improvement. (By the way, we may need to disable underscore of link as at Vietnamese Wikipedia, so that "tương tư" stands out from "tương tự", Oh, just found out that I have to set this up on my Preferences page - never underscore link) Trần Thế Trung 08:39, ngày 12 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

Import of the translation items

Since it seems that there is no additional comment or problem. I will perform the load of the translation article next week end for the French. I will then perform it for the English translation. For the vietnamese-vietnamese dictionary, I will need more time as the structure is not so simple to use. If someone is available on saturday, I would appreciate some help. >> I will be connected to the French IRC since there is no vietnamese one as far as I have read. Laurent Bouvier 19:11, ngày 14 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

Have you read Thảo luận Thành viên:Laurent Bouvier/défectueux and Thảo luận Thành viên:Laurent Bouvier/heureux, yet? Looks like the small problems I brought up there have not been fully resolved.Trần Thế Trung 09:01, ngày 15 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for you comment. Actually the issue with défectueux is already solved but I need to resubmit articles. The issue heureux is more difficult. For the wikification, I am trying to find the longest next expression. Unfortunately, it doesn't assort always properly the items. Any idea? Laurent Bouvier 08:07, ngày 16 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

Hi Laurent, "défectueux" is fine now! For "heureux", I have quickly come up with 2 suggestions, explained in details there. Summary: we may use the intersection of Vietnamese-Vietnamese, Vietnamese->French and Vietnamese->English for DB of Vietnamese compound word; and we may leave a phrase un-wikified when there are more than 1 choice of wikification for it. Probably, MXN or David can have better ideas.Trần Thế Trung 14:12, ngày 16 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

I have imported a 1000 French words so that the vietnamese items are not fully overwhelmed by the French ones. I have imported only articles for which I was not able to detect multiple potential compoundings. Laurent Bouvier 10:05, ngày 17 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

And 1000 more ! I have also added 1000 items in English. Thanks to those additions the Vietnamese wiktionnary move from the 40th positions to the 28th positions! Now, of course, many mistakes could have been inserted and therefore I will wait for your comments before to keep on loads more words. Laurent Bouvier 16:55, ngày 17 tháng 6 năm 2006 (UTC)

Conjugation for French verbs (Open)

I would like to discuss the feasibility of having the conjugation for French verbs as in Wiktionaire. Do you think that it is possible to copy the system of templates in Wiktionaire to here (and translate them where needed) so that the French verbs here can have conjugation information attached? If it is possible, then I would take the responsibility of translating them into Vietnamese. Trần Thế Trung 15:32, ngày 19 tháng 7 năm 2006 (UTC)

I will have a look. That's clearly feasible Laurent Bouvier 05:36, ngày 20 tháng 7 năm 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed that the conjugaison have been embedded directly in the items for the Spanish verbs. Do we do the same or do we create an annex page? Laurent Bouvier 09:56, 15 tháng 9 2006 (UTC)

I have tried the same thing (actually I think the style of Spanish verbs follows what I have done). See Thể loại:Chia động từ tiếng Pháp. I will finish importing the conjugation templates from French Wiktionary this weekend. After that we will need PiedBot to generate the conjugation information. I will explain the details after finishing with the templates. In the meantime, I have a question: are French verbs in 2nd group quite regular (no exception)? If yes we can start first with 2nd-group verbs. Trần Thế Trung 10:04, 15 tháng 9 2006 (UTC)

BTW, all the Frecnh conjugation templates are found in Thể loại:Tiêu bản chia động từ tiếng Pháp. Do you think for 2nd group verb, these templates (conj-fra-2-*) are enough? Trần Thế Trung 10:19, 15 tháng 9 2006 (UTC)

The source of truth of French conjugaison is a book edited by Bescherelle. I have one at home and so if you want, I can make a list of the different families. To answer your question, the second groupe is even more regular than the second group (especially with regard to Simple past) Laurent Bouvier 11:33, 15 tháng 9 2006 (UTC)

A list of the different families would be really helpful. Thank you in advance! Trần Thế Trung 12:33, 15 tháng 9 2006 (UTC)

2nd group

Let's start with 2nd group: they are verbs that one can find within fr:Annexe:Conjugaison française:Deuxième groupe.

Most of these verbs, if having an annex of conjugation, will have the following code within the conjugation annex:

1. {{2egr-fr-avoir-tout-d|''the verb racine''|''category listing''}} or {{2egr-fr-être-tout-d|''the verb racine''|''category listing''}} - if the verb start with vowel or "h" (e.g. fr:Annexe:Conjugaison française:abâtardir)
2. {{2egr-fr-avoir-tout|''the verb racine''|''category listing''}} or {{2egr-fr-être-tout|''the verb racine''|''category listing''}} - if the verb start with consonant (e.g. fr:Annexe:Conjugaison française:fournir)

Here their conjugation information will be added to the entry with the code:

1. for the verb start with vowel or "h" (e.g. obéir):

{{-forms-}}
{{conj-fra-2-avoir|''the verb racine''|de=d'}}

or

{{-forms-}}
{{conj-fra-2-être|''the verb racine''|de=d'}}

2. for the verb start with consonant (e.g. pourrir):

{{-forms-}}
{{conj-fra-2-avoir|''the verb racine''}}

or

{{-forms-}}
{{conj-fra-2-être|''the verb racine''}}

Note:

1. Here we don't need category listing
2. The verb racine is verb without "ir" part. E.g. racine of "obéir" is "obé".
3. The above exclude "irregular cases" of haïr, amuïr and "*fleurir".
4. The conjugation information is added right below the definitions in "Động từ" ("Verb") section.
5. PiedBot don't need to redo the cases I have done (found in Thể loại:Động từ tiếng Pháp nhóm 2).

If you find other "irregular cases", can you list them here? For the decision of which verb use *-avoir-*, which use *-être-*, may be you have a better idea than me (I just look at French Wiktionary, but when there is no information, I cannot tell) - however the case of *-être-* would be few. Trần Thế Trung 16:11, 16 tháng 9 2006 (UTC)

*fleurir

These verb use:

{{-forms-}}
{{conj-fra-2-avoir-fleurir|''the verb racine''}}

Here the verb racine is verb without "fleurir" part. E.g. racine of "défleurir" is "dé".Trần Thế Trung 16:41, 16 tháng 9 2006 (UTC)